Episode 2 - Our Leadership Adventures

In this episode Dave and Riley share part of their journeys into pastoral ministry as well as how they came to be working together for Sovereign Grace Churches Australia.

If you are interested in pastoral ministry or ministering in partnership, head here to connect with us, we'd love to help you on your journey.

Riley: Hello, and welcome back to the grace and the adventure of Leadership Podcast. And the hope of this podcast is to cultivate church leadership, which is fueled by and formed by the glorious realities of the gospel. I'm Riley Spring, I'm here with Dave Taylor

Dave: Hello.

Riley: And in the last episode, we introduced you to our hope for the podcast, what we're trying to get done. Really we're trying to see how does the gospel shaped leadership? Not primarily books and successful churches, but what are the dynamics of what God has to say in his holy word about who we are meant to be as leaders? But we're aware that you don't know us and you don't know our stories, and it's hard to just listen to someone who you don't have any background or context in, and want to actually learn from them. It takes great humility if you can, but what we're going to do today is actually dive into grace and our adventure of leadership. What adventure have we been on as leaders and how has the Lord been at work by his marvelous grace. So Dave, why don't you kick things off and let us into your adventure a little bit. I might jump in and interrupt you and ask you questions or pause on a moment. And then maybe if there's time, I'll share mine at the end as well.

Dave: Interrupt away. Yeah, my adventure has been a wonderful adventure. I've enjoyed the adventure. It is still a surprising adventure for me that I am a Christian at all, let alone a past-

Riley: Let's just stop there. I can't believe I'm a Christian.

Dave: Yeah. Yeah. But it's true. I still am surprised that I'm a Christian, I'm still humbled by that, I'm still grateful by that. I don't feel like being a pastor is the pinnacle of my life, I feel like being a Christian is a pinnacle of my life. And being a pastor is just what I get to do for the glory of the Lord, which I enjoy. I became a pastor some 21 years ago now I think.

Riley: How old were you?

Dave: 24.

Riley: 24!

Dave: Yeah. So 24, I went to the pastor's college in the states. Yeah, went to pastor's college in the states for the year. In fact, Emma and I got married in April 2000 and then moved to America in August of the same year.

Riley: Wow.

Dave: Yeah, we’d been married just a few months. Moved in with a family, had a profound effect on our lives, both the college and the family. I came back to Christchurch which is my sending church. The way the pastor's college works for us is you get sent by a local church, pastors that do believe you're called to ministry, you then go back to that church that is sending you. And I served there as an intern for two years and I thoroughly enjoyed that. The whole time being trained by Pete Greasley and Pete Ball.

Riley: And just to interrupt, this is Sovereign Grace Pastor's College, right?

Dave: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I think it was called PDI back then if I recall.

Riley: People of Destiny International.

Dave: Real humbling name

Riley: It's a humbling name.

Dave: Yes, such it's humbling as you look back. But yeah, Sovereign Grace Pastor's College. And then went back in term for two years and then became a full-time pastor. And I was the executive pastor there. Which in UK terms and Sovereign Grace terms doesn't mean primarily I'm doing the administration, it more men probably in Australian terms, you're like the assistant senior pastor I guess. If the senior pastor is not available for something, you're on, and the day-to-day running of the team was all me. So I was the other preacher and worship leader. Did youth ministry, did young adults ministry. I loved it. I did it. And I honestly thought we would be there for the rest of our lives in terms of our adventure. We're British, I thought we'd be there forever. We probably would have stayed in Christchurch forever, which is where we were, had no plan of doing anything else in any shape or form.

Dave: And I think at some point potentially I would have likely become the senior pastor of that church when the pastor at the time would have retired. And that would have been great. But about 12 years ago, or maybe it was 13 years ago now, or maybe 14, it was certainly a long time ago, a young man from Sydney approached Sovereign Grace about would we plant a church in Australia? CJ Mahaney was our founder and leader of Sovereign Grace at that time and he politely wrote back and thanked Mike Pasalich, Thanked Mike for his email, was deeply encouraged by his email. And there's no way we're going to be planting into Australia, it was just too far. And because of the way Sovereign Grace thinks where it's family and we want to be able to serve and care, it was like, "How would we possibly do that?" But if you meet Mike, you discover that Mike is not a man that takes no for an answer. So he just carries on and eventually he just moved to America to really beat the system. And so he ended up-

Riley: You can't say no if I'm on your doorstep.

Dave: Yeah exactly, I've arrived at your door. And so he actually did an internship in the Sovereign Grace Church there, and then ended up at pastor's college. And during pastor's college, I got to know Mike a Little bit. And he decided that he would come to the UK to do the final part of his internship with us in the UK. And partly because culturally it's a little bit closer to Australia than the United States is. Well, during that year, part of my responsibility was to help Mike prepare for planting in Sydney. But also for him to work out, "Is this definitely what you feel God calling you to do?" He wasn't totally sure. And during that year, it became apparent both to Mike and to us that, "Hey, I don't think the Lord is actually calling to plant a church in Sydney, I don't think he's necessarily given you all the gifts needed to do that." And he was very humble, very gracious and completely agreed.

Riley: It's amazing.

Dave: That I don't think I'm the one. But by this time there was already a lot of interest in Sovereign Grace coming for various reasons. And so the Lord, the long series of events put on our heart to come, which was without a doubt and suddenly. That had not been the plan of our lives, we were totally set up 34 years old to stay in Wales forever. We were very content.

Riley: In a great church, great ministry.

Dave: Great church, great group of pastors, most of my family were in that church, church's thriving, it was a happy place. Still is a happy place. But I was out for breakfast one morning with my wife. She's never mentioned Australia before, neither have I. And she was just asking about Mike and I was explaining that it doesn't look like he's going to be planting the church there in Australia. And she said, "Well, what type of guy would be needed to go?" And so I go into preacher mode, I start explaining all the gifts that would probably be needed to plant a church. And she said, "Well, you sound like that type of guy," and laughed. And I laughed.

Riley: Nervous laugh.

Dave: It was. And we both laughed. But I could take you back to that very table that we sat, I still remember it vividly. And we both stopped laughing and looked at each other. We didn't even say anything, but I think we both knew at that moment, "I think the Lord's calling us to go to Australia, darling." It was off the charts, to the point where I remember as leaving that table and going back to our car and actually already starting to deal with, "What would we even say to our parents? Or what do we say to our pastor at the minute?" It was just so bizarre. And so we actually agreed that, "Look, let's just sit on this and pray about it for a matter of weeks," which is what we did, we didn't tell a soul. And then I went to speak to our senior pastor, my friend Pete Greasley, explained what I felt the Lord to put on our heart.

Dave: I'm not assuming that we're seeing things with 2020 vision, I want to get counsel, I want to get thoughts. So I talked to him about what we felt the Lord might've put on our hearts. And he said, "Thank you so much. There's no way you can go. We need you here and have plans for the future. And we were actually pretty comfortable with that, Riley, to be honest. It was like, "Well, maybe the Lord is stirring something in our hearts, maybe he's not. Maybe for some reason we might fancy a change ourselves, I don't know." We really trusted Pete and loved Pete and still do. And he said as he left my office that day, he's like, "Look, I think it's a no, but I will pray about it." And for three months we left it with him, we didn't do a thing.

Dave: We carried on chatting about it as a couple, but we didn't do a thing. And eventually Pete came back, actually the day after and Emma and I re-talked about it again. And she was saying, "Do you think we should go speak to Pete?" And we decided we won't. The very next day he comes knocking on my door, he said, "Where are you at with Australia now?" I explained where we were at. He said, "I cannot fight the Lord on this anymore. You need to be going to Australia. I believe that is the will of God for you."So we did. It was 18 months later that we moved to Australia, planted Sovereign Grace Church, Sydney. It wasn't a walk in the park as an Englishman to come to Australia and plant into a culture that is quite similar to my own, but I understand it more now, 11 years on, but at the time didn't.

Dave: It is different, there are differences, but have seen the grace of God in it very kindly. It has been an adventure. Many times, many, many times where I've thought, "I am the wrong man in the wrong place at the wrong time." But many times on the other hand where I shake my head in disbelief I get to do this and very grateful for the Lord that I just get to be a part. I say to the church often, and I mean it, I look forward to the day when we retire, we sit at the back and I will be the biggest fans of what they're doing. I'm so thrilled to be a part more than being excited about the part I get to play. And obviously some years ago we met you. You walked in. And why don't you tell us a bit about your story, your adventure.

Riley: Yeah. Well, I'm just so grateful to the Lord that he brought you. And I've told you this many times, but he brought you guys over because my wife, Maddie and I, we owe so much of what we do in our life to how you have pastored me and your wife Emma has helped my wife Maddie. And so we're grateful. It was the Lord's will, I can confirm that, because it helped me so therefore.

Dave: It is confirmed today.

Riley: Yeah. So for me, I become, as I was sharing the other episode, convicted of my sin when I was about 16. And around about the same time when the gospel became glorious, I just was like, "I want to tell everyone." And so even when I did my year 10 work experience, which is something all year 10 students do in New South Wales, I did it with my youth minister. And so I went along with him to Bible college and preach some sermons and stuff like that.

Riley: And we had a bit of a fun with it, we were kind of joking around that I was this guest speaker and he would introduce me as Chuck Spring, the American. And no one else laughed, but we knew what was going on, we thought it was funny. And so even from that point in year 10, I had this calling, this desire, at least to preach. Really that would be what I felt was my primary calling was to preach the word. And so I just went about doing that when I could and just served in my local church, in kid's ministry, in youth ministry. I started listening to a lot of Mark Driscoll and he influenced me.

Dave: Like many young men.

Riley: Like many young men. And I'm grateful for his influence and his ministry. He helped me to have this desire to grow up and be a man.

Dave: Yeah.

Riley: And he often used to say his story. And I think because I liked him, I wanted to imitate him. And his story was, "Get saved, get married, have kids, plan a church." And I was like, "Okay, let's do that." Not really understanding all that would involve. But I soon got married and then we soon had kids. And at every juncture in my life, I wanted to go to Bible college so that I could become a minister. And I had this idea that it was really not because I actually really wanted the study, I just wanted the credential I think. I wanted the passport into ministry.

Riley: And I had this sense of, "I already feel called. I already maybe think I'm probably all right to go ahead and go and do it. Maybe I need some training," but it wasn't really a big factor. By God's grace, every time I asked people and sought counsel, they were like, "No, no, just, just wait." And so I did an economics degree and then finish that, like, "No, just wait." So I did a teaching degree. And halfway through that, I was like, "I want to quit and go to barber college." "No, just wait, get some life experience." I was like, "Oh, all right. Okay." And by God's grace, I took a job as a teacher in Hornsby at this great private school up there. And when I got that job, I met this guy called Simon Walker, who I also host another podcast with him.

Dave: Oh he's a podcast celebrity. You have just given our podcast such crazy by saying his name.

Riley: Yeah. We have a podcast called the Following Jesus Podcast, by the way, if you want to listen.

Dave: Yeah. With Simon Walker.

Riley: Simon Walker, the main deal. Anyway, I met Simon. He just joined Sovereign Grace Sydney. And I'd known about Sovereign Grace, I'd heard, I used to listen to CJ Sermons, I used to laugh and cry along and I loved their passion for the gospel. And so when my wife and I heard that there was one in our area, literally five minutes walk from our house, we were like, "We're visiting." We visited. Within five minutes, we were like, "This is where we want to be." They love Jesus, they showed it passionately. It was clear gospel centered teaching. It was on money, it was on generosity, but it was rooted in the gospel. And we loved that.

Riley: And so when we joined the church, we just had our first daughter Evie and we started hanging out and I just said, "Hey, look, I feel this calling to maybe be a pastor, plant a church." And you're like, "Okay, let's hang out." And so we just started hanging out from that point. And progressively got more and more time with you, you gave me some ministry opportunities like leading youth. And we still had this sense of like, "Maybe God's calling me to plant a church." And although my wife was freaked out by the idea and reluctant, because I think she understood both how hard it would be and my weaknesses more than I did.

Dave: Right.

Riley: She was brave enough and willing enough to go along. And so you guys sent me off to America, to the Sovereign Grace Pastor's College. And that year changed our life. Spending a whole year under God's word and being pastored full time by guys like CJ Mahaney, Bob Kauflin, Gary Ricucci, Jeff Purswell, these heroes and giants. As well as the community we were in. And over that time, even though you guys had modeled what pastoral ministry is, for some reason I still had this success mentality and this business mentality and this mega church mentality. And it wasn't until I was at pastor's college that all that I'd seen in you guys clicked into theological perspective. And I went, "Oh, pastoral ministry is shepherding the flock of God."

Dave: Yes.

Riley: Not building this epic empire or anything like that. It's an under shepherd looking after these precious little sheep with the word of God as the great jewel, the great nourishment, the only answer. And I went from just wanting to plant a church, I think foe my own glory really, to just being humbled at like, "Oh, if I would have the privilege of serving God's blood-bought people with the rest of my life, that would be just incredible." And that was just the Lord's grace to open my eyes, to see that and put all those pieces together.

Dave: Excellent.

Riley: And so I came back and by God's grace, we ended up being sent out by you guys with so much support, so many great people, a lot of money. And we planted a church in Paramatta.

Dave: You can come back now.

Riley: Yeah. I often think that. I feel like, "All right, planted a church. I'm done. I did my work."

Dave: Bring them all back.

Riley: And that's the great thing about how we planted the churches. I would happily go back and join you guys. We didn't leave because we were like, "Oh, we need to start our own thing." I'd go back today. If you wanted me, I'd come back.

Dave: Yeah.

Riley: And so my adventure so far has been just the Lord protecting me from myself. I'm so glad he didn't give me what I wanted, which was to be famous and big and popular. But he gave me a great church, a great family to be a part of, a family to submit myself to, to pastor not alone, but with a group of men who will hold me to account, and are just friends as well. And as a result, our life, our marriage, our parenting has changed. And so I'm only very fresh in really the formal part of the adventure, a year and a half into planting a church. And I know that I've seen you pastor for long enough to know that there are very high ups and very low downs. And so I'm glad that I don't have to do it on my own as I go through the adventure.

Dave: Oh, me too. Goodness. I don't know how people do it alone.

Riley: Yes.

Dave: I could not do it alone. It's never been more experience. In fact, even when we planted in Australia, I was not alone. We had so much contact from guys overseas that were caring for us and bothered for us. And I don't know how people pastor alone, very grateful.

Riley: I can't imagine doing it either. And if you are someone who is pastoring alone, part of this podcast, it's sponsored by Sovereign Grace Churches Australia. It's not the main name of this podcast, the main aim is just to teach some content and explore some ideas. But if you are interested in finding a family of churches which is gospel centered, reformed, charismatic, complimentarian, and seeking to do church as family and denomination as family, then jump on our website, sovereigngrace.com and hit us up say hi. And we'll chat back to you and start a relationship.

Dave: Riley loves to chat in particular.

Riley: Yeah.

Dave: Address all content to Riley, he would love it.

Riley: You can say hi to me, all the hard questions for Dave. We'll take that. Well, thanks for joining us. I hope that's helped you to get a bit of an idea of our adventure. It's all of grace, it's all for the glory of God. And still, we genuinely are just pinching ourselves that we get paid to do this.

Dave: I know.

Riley: I know CJ says this, it's a bit criminal.

Dave: It's criminal.

Riley: But we'll take it. All right, see you guys.